---start--- chronic diarrhea in horses frustrating - often never dx, can't fix. definition of chronic diarrhea: diarrhea lasting > 1 month (acute diarrhea lasts < 1 month, usually 2-3 wks) cow like feces watery feces diarrhea varies with stress usually we put these horses in our isolation unit, which cures them, until they go home - it varies with stress. you put them back in home environment and start training and it comes back. patient profile: more males than females, probably not a big deal any age sucklings, weanlings. can start at foal heat and last. can be young race horse - common - but can be any age. often in good condition ** maybe some mild weight loss, but most in good condition. most common in standardbreds - this may be a real or artificial finding. if you're training a stb you have a lot invested in fixing it b/c you sit behind it when training. can occur in any breed. history: duration >1 month maybe years - not uncommon to last years frequently since weaning - commonly starts at foal heat or weaning and lasts usually sporadic, sometimes occurs as an outbreak. back in the 1970s, the big standardbred farms were gearing up, and a vet at one farm found that sometimes they shipped yearlings from one farm to another and a yearling would come in with diarrhea after which 12 others in contact with him developed chronic diarrhea. he thought it was a contagious problem and got a grant to study it. Purdue U did a study to see what was going on, and found a virus in these yearlings that were having the diarrhea. there are many enteric viruses. they took that virus, and didn't really have much money but they vaccinated a horse with that virus to make him hyperimmune, then they gave the serum orally to the affected yearlings and the diarrhea stopped. then they gave it to some other horses with other types of diarrhea and their diarrhea stopped. 5-6 yrs later they got some more money and they couldn't find the stored virus. (not sure if someoen took it, or it disappeared out of the sample, he was unclear) onset: can be associated with dietary changes or weaning may be after acute enteritis it's not that unusual for a horse to have acute enteritis, totally recover in every way except continue to have diarrhea. on some farms where outbreaks of salmonellosis occur, often a lot of those animals have diarrhea for a couple of years or so after that. if you take those horses and do necropsy, youwon't find salmonella happens after abx tx happens after shipping or other stress PE - need a full PE TPR, MM, hydration normal abdomen may be normal, tucked up, or distended - if distended, try to find out why, it's trying to tell you something. borborygmal sounds may be loud - heard outside stall! listen for quiet areas you might hear. rectal exam: masses - LSA, granulomatous enteritis? LNs - usually you don't feel them, but you might thickened bowel? infiltrative dz displaced bowel? rectal biopsy usually unrewarding in these situations. Chronic diarrhea - lab findings often low WBC, < 5000, not sure of significance of this. it might be due to imbalance of flora causing more absorbance of endotoxin or something, might be some other reason. if there is leukocytosis, look for abscess or something. serum protein - often there is normal TP if TP is < 5.5 mg/dl or lower than you think it shoudl be, look for cause of protein losing enteropathy, check kidneys, liver. but usually normal. if TP high, look for abscess electrophoretic patterns with increases in alpha and beta area may be signs of parasites. electrolytes - 90% of the time are abnormal. Na+ a bit low, Cl, K, bicarb all a bit low...but the horse is used to it, this is a chronic problem, and they are at a steady state. if you watch carefully, these horses probably are drinking more and taking more salt. they are losing some 'lytes, but are in steady state, so don't go rushing in to correct this stuff. could offer an electrolyte beverage. abdominocentesis - often nice thing to do; usually normal though might find peritonitis or eosinophils associated with parasites. probably a good idea to do it to rule out some unusual problems fecal exam: helps direct tx protozoa - at least 48 spp live in large intestine of horse, if you take fresh colonic/cecal contents it looks like rumen fluid. anyway 20 spp can appear in feces; but when you look at it (squeeze feces so fluid gets on slide) in normal horse, you might see 8-10 protozoa - very few. in the diarrhea cases when you look at fecal water you see hundreds of them. or, in others, you look at many slides and see zero protozoa. so it can be increased or decreased number. this helps you decide how to tx. gram stain: normally > 90% of the stuff in there is gram neg, except in nursing foals where it is 50:50 +/- if you see predominantly one species that might be a problem - look for fungi if you have lots of fungal elements you could have fungal enteritis (some fungus is normal). you're looking for hundreds of them, not a few. diff-quick for fecal leukocytes. finding WBC in fecal water means inflammatory dz of GI tract, mucosal inflammation. again, almost always in these cases you do NOT find this. you usually see it in acute enteritis types of cases. fecal cultures: we dno't know what to culture for. routinely, salmonella. other bacteria? most of the time others aren't important in chronic diarrhea state, except overall balance. viral isolation? well, we're not sure - Purdue study wasn't followed up. fecal egg count is a good idea probably to do just to check pasture management, deworming program, see how effective that is. you can have parasitism with no fecal eggs, or high counts with unrelated disease present. usually we can't dx this. it's idiopathic diarrhea. "open" dx, imbalance of flora is probable cause per Dr. Palmer; some indication on VFA profiles suggest this is true. probably 90% of these cases are idiopathic. Larval Cyathostomiasis can cause chronic diarrhea esp in younger horses, or older horses with poor immunity. so it's worthwhile to try to tx that to see if it helps. chronic salmonella, other less common causes. so for this idiopathic form: most cases are this. mild weight loss but *in good body condition* <-- remember! persistent diarrhea - may be sl intermittent fecal output 2-3x normal but drinking more water, taking more salt change in protozoal numbers increased protozoa: can give drug to suppress flora a bit - best is iodochlorhydroxyquin (Reaform is old trade name - a drug that seems to work best on these horses with many protozoa - but company stopped making it. you can buy it from compounding companies but they can't call it Reaform so you have to remember the name iodochlorhydroxyquin. this was originally used to tx tropical protozoal dzs in humans). other possible tx: metronidazole, clioquinol - efficacy of these ??? metronidazole has caused some dramatic responses, but not sure if better when many protozoa are there or not. also clioquinol has had some success but dr p hasn't used it yet so won't vouch for it. tx for at least 5-7 days; if no response, discontinue - it's not like an antibiotic you have to tx for 10-14 days.... note one side effect of reaform is diarrhea, another is colic. so it's hard to tell whats going on. comes in 10 g boluses, you give it SID, and if it works at that dose good, if not you could try 20 g but not more. that's in typical 1200 lb horse. sometimes it works at 10 g and can decrease dose gradually and d/c after a few weeks; some need the drug the rest of their lives. sometimes can get down to 5 g every 2nd or 3rd day. it's not one of those things that will start to work in 3 weeks though. if not by 5-7 days, give up. decreased protozoa - another approach is used. it was found that horses with diarrhea when turned out with normal horses would eat the normal feces, and cure themselves. "self cure" "fecal cocktail" transfaunation: colonic/cecal liquor 5-6 L; sieved ingesta - repeat several times. this is more effective than using the fresh feces of a normal horse, however you need to be at a university or obtain the liquor from a horse killer or something. bleah. the presence or absence of the protozoa reflects the GI flora balance. if they aren't present, the bacteria are probably not right either. transfaunation puts everything back. it doesn't always work. sometimes you have to repeat it. it may pay to find out where horses are slaughtered in your area, so you have a source. sometimes this therapy backfires - more often it backfires if you try it with an acute enteritis. there is the possibility that the source horse had salmonella or something. so warn the owner it could backfire. Other Treatments: probiotics (lactobacillus, cultured yogurt, Probios) - these are a good idea but flora are so complicated that these don't return it to normal. you need to find a flora to displace what is there now, but that can be displaced by normal flora. like, in chickens, in first 2 weeks of life, there are 12 sets of flora, one replacing the other, but they need to be in order or it won't work. but, this sometimes helps, gives owner something to do, isn't costly... bismuth subsalicylate or loperamide may give symptomatic relief - can try, often don't work, sometimes cure though. phenoxybenzamine is good antidiarrheal but also a hypotensive - when you stop the drug, diarrhea comes back, too. also, was an investigational drug but caused a lot of vasodilation and death... oral serum - only positive responses were in the Perdue study - people still sometimes try it but it doesn't work. immune modulation - sometimes people think floral imbalance is due to reduced IgA - if you look at these horses some do have lower IgA levels...but immune modulation doesn't seem to work some people give large doses of mineral oil, occasionally works, no idea why barium enema also sometimes works to fix the problem without finding the cause. it will constipate them, you have to be careful. sometimes diarrhea doesn't come back. In general: **The best treatment is NO TREATMENT* most tx don't work reaform or transfaunation ok yogurt ok but often, the more you do, the more you screw things up. the problem often is that the owner is more upset and worried about it than the horse. horse is in good body condition, doing fine, sort of messy, but not upset about it. standardbreds can still race well, just messy. best thing then is to do nothing. but clients will get pissed off. you may have to do something but the less you do is probably the better. *do nothing* *do nothing* *do nothing* *these horses are in good body condition.* ok, that's the story with 90-95% of chronic diarrhea in adult horses. Larval cyathostomiasis - associated with some chronic diarrhea changes in motility - occur with few lumenal parasites; soluble toxins from the parasites. enteritis can occur with encysted larvae breaking out of cysts. history of parasite control program important - may be poor program, often a good control program is in place though. onset is in spring or late winter or fall; recurrent colic; peritoneal fluid eosinophils; cowlike to watery diarrhea; dermatitis - patchy alopecia, scaling. electrophoretic pattern of serum proteins note: we see dz in late winter, early spring; in south in late summer, early fall, b/c hypobiosis in south is in summer to protect from heat, here is in winter to protect from cold. if chronic diarrhea horse is sort of thin, with dermatitis - consider parasite. tx: ivermectin (moxidectin?) q 2 weeks. not sure if moxidectin is good. fenbendazole q 2 weeks daily pyrantel tartrate may prevent recurrence Rhodococcus equi may cause chronic diarrhea: mostly in weanlings look sick bad haircoat, history of past respiratory dz may or may not be present may be hx of rhodococcus on farm, or not diarrhea variable - watery and persistent or cowlike enlarged mesenteric LNs seen on ultrasound usually have abdominal distension abdomen pendulous, poor body tone search for abscess high white count high fibrinogen, high TP fecal culture/gram stain - unfortunately, about 1/2 of the horses whose feces you culture will show rhodococcus equi. finding it is just a sign that is consistent with dx, but isn't the dx. you can find it, and horse could be sick with something else. but it's of limited value. not finding it doesn't rule it out. therapy: erythromycin, rifampin - even though emycin is associated with diarrhea. prognosis used to be considered poor. now that we find it earlier with u/s and tx more aggressively, it is less poor than it was a few years ago, but it still isn't good. fair? more likely than not that you will be unsuccessful in tx these horses. usually you find large LNs along GI tract at necropsy, and peyers patches that are almost ulcerated into abscesses. can be very dramatic, can dx grossly. chronic salmonellosis: some people say it is most common cause of chronic diarrhea. if you look hard enough, 10% of horses are shedding it, so 10% of chronic diarrhea cases will be positive, but is it causative or an incidental finding? 10% are subclinical carriers. the ones that have chronic salmonellosis diarrhea are those with a history of full blown salmonella enteritis also weight loss, poor condition, protein losing enteropathy, may have colic, variable diarrhea. no magic therapy. diarrhea is usually there after salmonella is gone - at postmortem you don't find any great salmonella lesions or inflamed areas and sometimes you find no signs of salmonella at all...we try bacterins, immune stimulants, other things. prognosis is variable. depends on how patient the owner is. some horses will have diarrhea x 2-3 years, then get better. if not shedding salmonella, probably can put back with herd. will be in poorer condition than other chronic diarrhea horses, though. it's a rare thing, though. giardiasis - identified in outbreaks of chronic diarrhea esp in yearlings; sporadic in adults pathogenesis is unclear. some farms in texas have had giardia outbreaks Globidium leukarti - another parasite, similar to giardia horses and donkeys small intestine parasite heavy oocyst role as true pathogen debated - may be seen in healthy animals may depend on dose, age, condition of host. other causes of chronic diarrhea: CHF liver disease w/portal hypertension renal dz toxemia stress so on initial PE, look around carefully. ---break--- Dr. Steinberg small animal neuro This hour is really an introductory hour, to help you appreciate an approach you will be heraing from each of us who talk with you over the next 12-14 hrs that is pretty consistent. we may use different words or emphasize different things, but the basic way to address neuro problems is pretty consistent. the other things that are consistent are that we have an idea of the prior education you've had here. the neuro course you had is a neuroscience course giving a broad overview of the nervous system. consequently you've had very little functional neuroanatomy. and yet, that is probably the primary tool in clinical neurology. so, one of our missions, and the primary one, is to help you recognize the essential elements of neuroanatomy, functional neuroanatomy. my message is to tie together clinical signs, and the clincal approach. how many of you diagnosed a brain abscess last night? one. what? no idea what that was about. the neurologic signs that we see are for the most part abnormalities of function, sensation, motor activity, behavior. signs of disease are either the signs the client is concerned about or that we see during an exam. btw, we will follow the handout closely this hour so you don't need to take notes. in fact, we often talk about how much more useful the lecture would be if you didn't write anything down. maybe for him, but for me, I need to write it down or I forget it all - it seems that my fingers have a better memory than i do. it's good to read ahead. illustrations of things that we see in clinics will be discussed. you will profit more from the videos if you have read ahead. we'll emphasize clinical signs, not necessarily postmortem material. we'll see some CT, MR but the thrust of this is for vets who can interpret animal dz as it relates to the nervous system, using heads and hands and other tools at your disposal. one message here - clinical signs tell you more about anatomic location of the causal lesion than about the cause. it's commonplace for people to come in and say "this dog is doing the same thing the dog's cousin did three years ago." and think it is the same dz. but it may be a different one in the same location. if the dentist puts a local into a nerve - those signs of numbness are the same signs you would see if he had transected the nerve. the signs reflect a failure of function - not necessarily physical interruption. deficit is related to nerve that isn't working, not to a specific pathologic process that caused the failure. signs relate to site. this requires an understanding of what parts of NS do. what is normal function of what site. how does disease influence that site to cause signs, what are the signs?finally, how do i examine an animal so that i can recognize those signs? the effect of the lesion the biological behavior of the lesion anatomic site normal function clinical signs history breed, age,sex history, PE, tests diagnosis clinical decisions there is a relationship b/w signs and sites lesions affect the anatomic site in a way that disturbs normal function to produce abnormal function. that is what clinical signs mean. manifistations of dysfunction. murmur = manifestation of valvular disfunction. limp = manifestation of stifle disease. not starting is a manifestation of electrical failure in the car. site and signs are intimately related. dysfunction and signs are intimately related. in contrast, the behavior of the lesion, and the way it disturbs the site, are what created the history - was it progressive, slow, and unremitting as a degenerative dz might be? was it sudden onset like ischemia, trauma might be? the history gives a hint to the type of process a technique that is very separate from doing a PE and making a neuroanatomic dx. the history helps you form a differential diagnosis - what might be the causes. the physical exam and stuff help you forma neuroanatomic diagnosis. in clinics you will have to form neuroanatomic diagnoses - figure out if problem is in nervous system, and if so where. then after that, you will have to contemplate what kind of process might be going on, and then finally what is the cause of the pathologic process. intro to every classical neuro book is what are the three diagnostic questions? where is the lesion? what process caused it? what etiologic agent caused the process? we assess the NS functionally. we don't see it or palpate it. we see how it works. it's by that functional assessment that we decide where lesions might be and pursue cause subsequently. please interrupt with questions as needed. having made these two distinct diagnostic efforst - neuroanatomic and differential (and we use the same vitamin d or damnit list) - the necessity is to be complete in your consideration; then we utilize other peripheral information - signalment, which is very useful - we know some diseases are more common in the young or old or a breed or species or whatever. observations about other abnormalities that may be pertinent are important too - with those ideas, we look for a specific test to do - take a radiograph of thoracolumbar junction, do an MRI to see something in the brain, whatever. this leads us we hope to a diagnosis, and then the clinical step that gets little attention sometimes is clinical decision making - should we operate on the brain or not, for instance. this is a little like ministerial preaching, where we spend time talking about obvious truth, that on the surface sounds of little importance, but is really the key to life. this is really a fundamental clinical idea. it's not peculiar to neuro and you probably have heard it before but many people come to the clinics without appreciating the merit of dissecting the problem into manageable parts. if you want to approach this in order to make a neuroanatomic dx by knowing how normal parts function - how lesions affect normal function - and knowing they are the signs of diseas e- you have to know hwat each part of the NS does. a while ago, he created a "hierarchy" of how to look at neural function and build from simple to more complex. he lost the english slide though, but here is the italian version. the Function of the CNS and PNS in the PNS, PNs are excitable and they conduct. they conduct toward CNS (afferent) and away from CNS (efferent). that's it. that's all they do. if you have a lesion of the PNS, signs are what? disturbance of one of those functions. CNS - spinal cord and brain - there are reflexes - the cord has places where sensory and motor nerves form reflex arcs. the cord also integrates impulses. not every peripheral afferent produces a predictable response. there is some integrative processing of afferent info. those reflexes are modified, either by local activity, the nature of the peripheral input, or central activity - the brain affecting the reflex center. so cords are more complex, but depend on PNS input. the brain - adds volition, control, learning and such. in the handout, a similar hierarchy is present. role played by PNs, cord and brain is listed. check it out. during the course of this hour and days to come, we'll discuss function of various parts of the NS, there will be some repetition to help you out. in 1850s, Hughlings Jackson was a clinical neurologist who contributed in great measure to how neurologists considered and looked at their patients. because we depend on functional exam in neuro, and the number of ways of examining the NS are limited, people were looking for the best ways to look at it. jackson had a great capacity for this. Jacksonian seizures were named after him. these are epileptic events named after him. we'll talk about them later. this is a steinberg modification to his theories: if we know what the function of parts are, can we make a general statement about how lesions affect normal function? the method is to divide all possible signs into two categories - negative and positive signs. function is diminisshed or function is exaggerated. lesions/normal function --> signs of disease negative signs --> deficiency, eg. anesthesia. cut a nerve - conduction fails. part innervated by nerve is anesthetic. muscle innervated by nerve is paralyzed. these are deficiencies as manifestation of how lesion affects function. you cut the wire, the light goes out. easy. more indirect, but also useful, is the secondary idea of release: negative signs --> release (from facilitation) eg spinal shock. nerves and cords have functions that are modified by many impulses - remember temporal and spatial summation, where multiple influences come into reflex center and get integrated. in general, those functions may show evidence of having been "released" from facilitation. what's the idea here? if you strike the quadriceps tendon, you evoke simple monosynaptic reflex (knee jerk). for that to work, there must be a level of excitability in alpha motor neurons to femoral nerve making nerve excitable when stimulated. is that motor neuron pool always ready to produce the response? no. there are times when the femoral nerve motor neuron pool is depressed. it's inexcitable. it is determined by the descending influences which maintain them in a ready state. if you remove the influences which maintain the excitability, you take away facilitatory influence, neuron pool is depressed, you can't depolarize it, you have failure of function. so there are constantly influence bombarding the system from elsewhere, usually in descending brain to cord direction but not always. but if you take away the facilitatory influence you have a new cause for failure. the failure is due to abscence of facilitation. this is most dramatic in the primate, especially people, but all primates really. in people, it is not rare for those who suffer significant thoracic spinal cord problem, to have absent hind limb reflexes. ordinarily, you'd expect with adequate afferent input to lumbar cord segments and adequate efferent output to lower area, you'd think the knee jerk would work. but people are highly dependent on descending facilitatory influences so they lose the segmental reflex, merely because of loss of facilitation. this occurs in lower animals also. the major difference is in the duration of the reliance on the excitatory influence. the term is called "spinal shock." absence of reflex below level of lesion due to loss of facilitation is "spinal shock" and we see it shortly after severe cord trauma in the species with which we deal, but it is most evident in higher animals. so we have to reasons here for function to fail. deficiency and release from facilitiation. positive signs --> irritation, eg. pain. tumor growing on nerve is likely to excite axons and make them fire. the disc pressing on sciatic roots will irritate the axon, depolarize it, cause radiating pain down back of leg. the tumor that is associated with a seizure in the brain is very likely to have an irritative influence which could be mechanical or chemical, on the surrounding tissue, producing irritation and seizure. pretty easy to figure this out. lesion irritates tissue, causes hyperactivity. positive signs --> release (from inhibition) very important in veterinary species. this is the opposite of above. descending inhibitory influences also act on motor neuron pools. release from inhibition causes hyperreflexia. spinal shock is characterized by hyporeflexia or areflexia. the release from inhibition causes positive effects - depolarization and hyperreflexia. so reflex is more easily elicited. when they occur they are exaggerated in a variety of ways. characteristics of peripheral nerve disease (PND) 1. anesthesia (absence of sensation)/hypesthesia (diminished sensation) 2. paralysis (loss of volitional motor activity) (also paresis - weakness associated with incomplete paralysis) --> results in muscle atrophy, EMG changes 3. trophic and autonomic effects (less common) - we don't think about this too much b/c manifestation of this is less common...recall that these nerves, though, contain not only somatic afferent/efferent axons, but autonomic fibers controlling blood vessel tone, glands, etc. so sometimes manifestation of PND is edema, or glassy change in skin, disease or dysfunction around nail beds, that kind of thing. when discussing PND clearly the signs relate to anatomic distribution of the nerve. so you shoudl know sensory and motor distribution of major limb nerves so you can recognize when ulnar nerve had been damaged, know sensory distribution of sciatic vs femoral nerve in hind leg, etc b/c this is how you localize the problem. characteristics of Spinal Cord Disease (SCD) 1. anesthesia 2. paralysis 3. disturbed reflexes (hyper/hypo) deficits tend to be bilateral at or below the level of the lesion. there are exceptions. keep in mind - you can have paralysis and still be able to induce reflex activity. paralysis is the absence of volitional control. maybe you can't walk, but we can induce in the paralyzed legs, reflex activity. that shouldn't surprise you. paralysis does not mean "can't move," means "can't control movement". similarly, could have very active flexor withdrawal to pain stimulus without feeling any pain. dog can have anesthetic foot with exaggerated segmental reflexes. ok? withdrawal does not imply perception. knee jerks do not imply motor capacity. the cord segments function in an isolated fashion - this is why it's inhibited or facilitated. it's important to know that with SCD - focal SCD - the lesion produces deficits that are often bilateral but typically asymmetrical. consider the size of cord, it's small, so the lesion is very likely to produce ipsilateral deficits below the level of the lesion, but cord isn't big so a lesion causing right sided deficits probably will also affect left side. with only one or two exceptions the deficits are below or caudal to level of lesion. usually ipsilateral. diseases of the brain: cause abnormalities of gait posture sensation metabolism mental awareness in a general way, we can talk about parts of the brain and how they might show signs of a lesion. separate and about five hours from now, dr vite will discuss cranial nerves and their role but just remember the cranial nerves and their nuclei are distributed along the brainstem, so one consideration with the brain is which nerves are functional and might that point to a level of concern. so II, III, IV - rostral; IX, X, XI, XII consider medulla. but grossly, T = telencephalon, cerebral cortex. first and foremost, think about people who have had strokes - Dr. Buchanan - someone with hemiparesis - one side of the body being weak in the hand and limb, the whole side of the body..the animals we deal with are not likely to show signs like that. the animals with which we deal do not have obvious postural or motor deficit associated with cortical lesions. experimentally, removing the cortex doesn't cause motor paresis. the animal can walk with normal gait and posture despite cerebral lesions. now, when you examine them, you will find postural abnormalities. but when you observe them walking, they have normal gait. having siad that, they may walk in circles, and they tend typically to walk in circles toward the side of the lesion. but they walk with normal gait. the telencephalon taken with the Diencephalon (thalamus and hypothalamus) == forebrain, prosencephalon. these are the structures from which seizures emanate. a lesion in one of these structures, or a dysfunction caused by metabolic dz elsewhere, has origin in prosencephalon, forebrain. hypothalamus - eat, sleep, reproduce, maintain body temp the BN basal nuclei are also worth recognizing are nothing like human BN. we do not see a Parkinsonian dz in animals, a dz characterized by the sinuous, uncontrolled jerky motions we see in people. mostly, the BN are invovled in motor control but we see no dramatic deficits from lesions here. MES mesencephalon -part of brain surrounding the aqueduct, where colliculi are, where extraocular muscle nuclei are, where reticular activating system is that maintains the alert state. the MED medullary centers controlling ANS, respiration, cardiovascular system, reflexes that have to do with eating and swallowing. all the really essential stuff is in the brainstem. also below cerebellum in brainstem is vestibular apparatus finally in cerebellum there is primary motor control signs you see will call attention to one or more sites. only after all that do you form ddx signalment history PE and neuro exam assessment: list abnormalities then and only then - formulate ddx - the damnit list list problems - order by importance plan - dx tests to confirm tx plan remember history is essential for creation of damnit list history taking - boy this is really preaching because you're supposed to learn this four or five times in the curriculum, but it is really difficult so here are five minutes from Dr S on it. one: history taking is kind of primary human interaction b/w strangers. basic intercourse b/w people, and we are not always sympathetic to how hard the wquestions we are asking are. there should be a course called sick so you have to experience illness yourself and know how hard it is to reconstruct events, and maybe you had a flat tire on the way in and you're distratcted and it's costing you a lot to be there and your dog has been sick a long time and you know the vet is annoyed you didn't come in sooner and all this stuff gets in the way and you should be sympathetic to that. two: it's very hard to focus on the signs the owner saw, and not the conclusions the owner has made. why are you here today? b/c dog convulses. it is easy to forget that's a conclusion. the question is, what did your dog do? what did you see? owner says "convulsion" but maybe it wasn't? maybe someone else said that's what it was. a lady from Pine st brought in a cocker spaniel for seizures. back then, cocker spaniels often convulsed. Dr S asked her "tell me what you saw". she said she used to find the dog writhing on the floor, banging head on floor, salivating, rubbing face, and that it would go on for a while, but if she opened the refrigerator door the dog would stop, come to the kitchen, and get some butter. dog liked butter. then, sometimes he would go back and have another seizure. dog had a raging otitis. was rubbing ear on the floor, salivating for some reason (ecstasy?) but liked butter more than he liked scratching the hear. they took him off the dilantin which doesn't work. dog didn't have a seizure disorder. you have to make the dx. you have to get owner to share observations with you. ask the right questions, and listen to their answers. formulate questions based on their answers. another thing to do - make some observations about how your pet behaves and how you might want to check reflexes. we'll talk more about it monday. ---end---